The so-called Quarry Hill gravel path behind Shaganappi Golf Course is a disgrace. In winter it is at times unrideable. In spring it alternates between dangerous icey ruts and gummy muck. Mud and ruts are common throughout the year. When you use this path, you sometimes arrive at work spotted with mud and your chain needing maintenance. At the same time, the Quarry Hill gravel path is clearly a major bicycle commuting route between the west side of the City and downtown, and it is the only unpaved part of the route between the downtown core and the neighborhoods of Strathcona, Patterson, Coach Hill, Westsprings, Couger Ridge and points west of that. While Edworthy is an option, it takes longer and adds time to the commute.
I have contacted my alderman Richard Pootmans but I haven't seen any indication that he even cares about this. I have spoken to Recreation and Parks on a couple of occassions (through 311) who say they would pave it, but some environmental type group will not allow it (as if a paved path in this area will cause some kind of environmental calamity, notwithstanding all the protected undeveloped pathways in the area). I know of at least one other commuter who is pushing the same issue.
This is ridiculous. Hopefully the new Cycling Coordinator can make headway on this issue. Because I give up.
alternate routes to downtown
Submitted by 2wheeler on
Besides Ed Worthy, isn't there a paved pathway down to the river at 24th Street along the east end of the golf course by Shagannappi/Sunalta? There is even snow clearing on the 24th St hill pathway. While it might not be optimal, it looks to me like you have pretty good bicycle access coming from the west to DT. You should try some of the (non) routes from the SE or NE. I'm hopeful that the new cycling coordinator will focus on creating continuous on-street and pathway links throughout the whole city, not adding where available bicycle infrastructure already exist. I'm not saying that your proposal wouldn't be helpful for commuting, but in my opinion the City's priorities should be on areas with little to no bicycle infrastructure.
I don't see how the point of being "spotted with mud" or a muddy chain is going to get you much traction with the city. Spray from riding is going to happen if it's wet, regardless of the surface you're riding.
The gravel path is the ideal
Submitted by winterrider on
The gravel path is the ideal route for cyclists as the grade is manageable, and it connects to Spruce Drive which is a perfect cycling commutere road, which then connects to the bike paths out of Coach Hill and Strathcona.
The paved path you refer to is quite steep, and even plowed it can be covered in glaze ice according to comments I have seen on this website, and does not easily connect to Spruce Drive due to there being a Golf Course in the way.
I would ignore the comments about mud, and focus on the ruts, deep mud, and snow and ice that make this a dangerous route to use. I have used this trail occasionally, and would use it more frequently if it were paved.
My only use is recreational, but I can easily see that paving and plowing this route would enable a larger segment of the population in the southwest to feel confident about commuting by bicycle.
I don't think the city should
Submitted by JohnE on
I don't think the city should ignore any comments and should hear commuters out - I think it's reasonable to expect that we should be able to arrive at work without being covered in mud from the knees down, splattered in the face, etc., on what is a major connector. I ride to work in the winter and am used to all kinds of road crap, but the Quarry Hill path is consistently hopeless.
Clearly the more important comment, is the safety issue that involves ice, ruts, mud and otherwise typical poor conditions. There are also errosion problems due to improper draining and grading.
Would be a big improvement
Submitted by snowandscience on
Hi John,
I definitely hear your concerns - I think it's a shame this hasn't been done, considering how many people it would safely connect to the Bow MUP system. With the planned Spruce Drive bike lanes related to the West LRT, I think this is a no-brainer to get done as far maximizing cycling connectivity in the city. The 24th St pathway is paved, but very steep, and doesn't connect with your neighborhood, so I certainly understand your desire to use the fastest route. Keep up the good work with the City, I contacted Alderman Mar about this today, and hopefully we'll see some action on it soon.
Ben
Good work
Submitted by DarrenB on
Good work guys -- this is a route definitely worth advocating for. One question, though: what's the environmental concern on that trail? Does anyone know? I even vaguely recall something about a seasonal ban or proposed ban on the use of that trail? Anyways, if there is resistance from the community regarding paving, it would be good to know what that is to move forward strategically.
Environmental Concern
Submitted by JohnE on
"Environmental concern" may have been a misdescription on my part. I understand from the City in the past that the concern is actually more of a heritage thing - apparently the Quarry Hill trail was used to transport gravel sometime early in Calgary's history and there is a preservation group that believes it should remain gravel. As a born and bred Calgarian from the southwest that is more than half a century old, I don't personally see a heritage value to it and doubt many other Calgarians do either, but I have not contacted the preservation group. I do know there are other protected trails in that area including the spruce tree trail that are (and should be) protected.
Be careful what you wish for
Submitted by ggdub on
Just playing Devil's Advocate here.
I ride the quarry trail everday, year round and am conflicted on whether I want it paved or not. The only times in winter this trail is impassable is after a major snowstorm and in early spring, other than that its actually preferable (IMO) to Edworthy road since it lacks a major ice seep on a blind corner. That, and when its packed down there's lots of traction due to little gravel bits mizing in with the snow.
As far as mud goes after rain, full fenders solve all your problems.
With all that being said, if its paved it could end up being a major improvement provided they find a way to properly drain the ice seeps and make sure it gets plowed. If those ice seeps can't be drained, you'll just end up with another situation like the south side of the bow path under spruce cliff (inclined, off camber, sheer ice). Right now, the gravel underneath makes those seeps rideable.
My final thought on paving is that you'll likely see people seriously speeding down that thing in the mornings, so much so, that it could really be a gong show. Right now, the loose gravel keeps a lot of people in check.
Those are good comments.
Submitted by JohnE on
Those are good comments. Whether or not the trail gets paved, the City should fix the drainage and errosion problems on that trail for both safety and aesthetics. I'm not an engineer, but I see the seeps on that path as minor enough that drainage work (including culverts) could deal with them. You are probably right that in certain conditions gravel may provide better traction. There is also standing water on that trail fairly frequently, which in the morning before thaw are skating rinks right over the gravel. Again, I would think proper drainage could alleviate much of that. Water seems to be the real problem. I agree with you that major snows don't keep it down for long - it gets tamped pretty fast and actually isn't bad in mid-winter once tamped, at least if you're running studs downhill. After a day at work, it'd be nice to ride a cleared uphill, since the rest of the entire route all the way from the core to Bow/Sarcee and even beyond is cleared.
As for the speeding, from what I've seen, lots of cyclists are seriously speeding on that hill already (it actually posts a 10kmh speed limit on the lower part) and other than for the chatter bumps in the big hairpin by the bench, I doubt pavement would speed it up materially. I think speed bumps may be an idea - even if just to get the idea across to riders that they should travel at a reasonable speed on that hill.
P.S. I do have full fenders on my cross bike, but still get dirty. Maybe I need better fenders ...
Sorry, wasn't trying to be
Submitted by ggdub on
Sorry, wasn't trying to be flippant about the fenders, but I see a tonne of people heading down that thing when its wet with just a clip-on wail tail fender or nothing at all and I weep for their drivetrains, washing machines and coworkers who have to share an elevator with that person. Its a really fine sand paper like grit that comes off that path.
I would hate speed bumps, but bregrudginly admit something would be needed. Its more just that upper part before the first switchback where I envision a big wreck between someone taking a corner too wide. Hopefully, I'm wrong.
I wonder if you/we could
Submitted by bike-run on
I wonder if you/we could petition the City to rake the gravel each spring, to smooth out the ruts and washboard?
An Alternative
Submitted by themacneils on
I used to ride Quarry Trail every day through the seasons except like ggdub mentioned, when the snow is too deep or when it's melting out and the melt/freeze/wheel ruts/footprints can make it resemble a scene out of WWI. Same thing for the paved path on the E side of the golf course, except the steep path takes a bit out of the legs of an average commuter like me.
But a month or two back, critninja shared a route he had been riding from downtown to Westbrook Mall which has turned out to be a huge improvement in terms of effort and time. I live on the top of Signal Hill near 17th Ave, so this route is way more direct than the old route I used to take up Spruce Dr and then through Strathcona & Christie Park. Here is the Coles Notes version (just search for westbrook mall route and you should find the thread and the map too):
As an aside I hope they replace that old bridge (especially the nasty off-camber corkscrew on/off ramps).
Hope this helps!
You forgot to mention the
Submitted by ggdub on
You forgot to mention the speed bumps on the nasty off-camber corkscrew and the blind corner!
Some History
Submitted by gyrospanner on
I love that Old Quarry Trail! I ride it a lot in the summer. It is a "memory" of the old sandstone quarries in the area (see the writing starting at about section 10).
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~database/THE%20STORY%20OF%20BANKVIEW.htm
I rode it today and it diddn't seem too bad - a few ruts to steer around, but nothing too scary. I think that they could fix it up with some better drainage management and by getting rid of quite a few urban campers in that whole area....
Interesting History
Submitted by JohnE on
Calgary does have some interesting history. It would be cool if they could bring out some of that area's history for everybody's enjoyment. I've thought about an enhanced area at the top of the trail - signs and maybe a kiosk or such - that could be built in connection with the paving of the trail.
This is fairly dry spring and the trail is generally ok until it starts to rain. Stay tuned later this week ...
Quarry Trail is just fine the
Submitted by xcrider on
Quarry Trail is just fine the way it is, leave it alone. I vote for no pavement.
Dangerous and needs to be paved
Submitted by SingleSpeederW on
I am confident no-one on this site exceeds the posted 10 km/hr speed limit or rides exclusively on the 6 inch wide "groomed" part of the trail even around blind corners.... Notwithstanding this, having access to the entire width of the trail, having the ability to safely control your speed without either being stuck bouncing over brake bumps, sliding in loose gravel, or being thrown around by erosion channels or (in the winter) loose snow / rutted ice will make this trail safer and more enjoyable for all users. When my children were younger and just starting to venture onto the bike paths, my wife or I needed to ride ahead of them to "block" anyone coming too fast around the blind corners. While I would have loved to have taught my kids to hug the right side of the trail, the loose gravel and eroded ditches made that impossible for an experienced rider on a mountain bike, much less a pre-schooler on 20" wheels. Selfishly as a daily user of the trail it is nice that the disrepair makes it less attractive for recreational users, but as a strong supporter of cycling in Calgary, this path needs to be paved so it will be safe for all users. I called 311 and my alderman to raise this, the more of us that do the same, the more likely this issue will be resolved.
Safety
Submitted by JohnE on
It would be nice to see the City get interested in making this trail safe - there are many times of the year when the condition of it is a complete joke, and an enlightened municipality would recognize that good commuting trails aren't graded with gravel.
agree
Submitted by mikewarren on
I like having some not-paved trails. In this case I almost-always am using the trail for "recreation" so I can see how commuters would like a paved option (that actually works). I wish, e.g., they'd just done some waterbar-type improvements on some of the things they paved on Nose Hill.
There is no such thing as a
Submitted by xcrider on
There is no such thing as a dangerous road or path, only dangerous users. If this section of pathway were to be paved the people descending would only be going faster and the wet sections would have black ice on them from the natural springs.I have called 311 and requested that this path should be left as a gravel path for this reason and that they should add some drainage control cross bars to prevent water ruts.
Users
Submitted by JohnE on
I appreciate your views. But did you know that poor surfaces can make roads more dangerous? Try driving the Dempster Highway to Inuvik to see how dangerous a road can get in the wet. At the same time, the dangerous users will go fast, paved or unpaved. Users can travel so fast on that trail as it is, that I doubt pavement would cause a material increase of speed in the speeders anyway. So it makes sense to me that the trail will be safer if it is paved, but I do believe that in order to address your concern, which is a valid one, there should be some sort of speed control.
Hoping an unsafe surface will keep speeds down, is not the best solution in my opinion.
Users
Submitted by JohnE on
I appreciate your views. But did you know that poor surfaces can make roads more dangerous? Try driving the Dempster Highway to Inuvik to see how dangerous a road can get in the wet. At the same time, the dangerous users will go fast, paved or unpaved. Users can travel so fast on that trail as it is, that I doubt pavement would cause a material increase of speed in the speeders anyway. So it makes sense to me that the trail will be safer if it is paved, but I do believe that in order to address your concern, which is a valid one, there should be some sort of speed control.
Hoping an unsafe surface will keep speeds down, is not the best solution in my opinion.
worried paving will create problems
Submitted by critninja on
I am really conflicted on this issue as I use this pathway a lot and have no problem with the gravel surface. In the summer I use it lots, in the winter its a crapshoot depanding on snow levels.
But I can see why some would like to see it paved but I have very serious concerns that others have also raised that paving will allow people to go much faster, rasiing the chances of head on collisions.
Paving it will also draw more joggers, walkers, and baby strollers - which will also lead more conflicts on a trail that is IMO already too narrow for the traffic i currently gets.
I think a compromise solution is needed - my suggestion is for the city to leave the gravel as it is and "enhance" the pathway by maintaining it in the winter by plowing it regularly. If people want to ride on pavement there are 2 viable options - Edworthy Hill and the MUP coming from the Bow Trail area.
Just my 2 cents.
What about other paved paths with hills
Submitted by winterrider on
There are a lot of hills with paved paths in this city, and so far as I know head on collisions due to speeding descenders is not an issue on any of these paths.
Why would quarry trail be any different?
Paving makes it Safer
Submitted by JohnE on
Paving will make the trail more safe, not less safe. It is easy to go very fast on the surface as it is, and as SinglespeederW points out, the current grading can make it difficult to control a bicycle - and by extension, avoid a collision. As winterrider says, there are lots of hills with paved paths in Calgary. This is no different.
I also think that part of the paving could involve speed bumps at critical location, which may help keep speeds down.
All Users
Submitted by xcrider on
All users should have a voice in this issue and I bet that pedestrian and runners would not support paving of the path. I completely disagree with some of your arguments about surface not being an issue in controling speed of users. People that can control their bike will go fast on any surface, people that have limited skill can go faster on paved paths. Just my 2 cents but I am totally opposed to paving the Quarry Trail. As for paving the path to make it smoother and then adding speed bumps to make it slower, did you really thing that one through before you typed it????
Thought
Submitted by JohnE on
Yes, I really did think that one through and it makes sense to me. Not sure all of your comments make sense (I believe your surface arguments conflict), but in any event people can judge that without being making ignorant comments to each other.
What a curious argument!
Submitted by mercator on
I suppose the expanded membership here means these sorts of disagreements would become inevitable, but I find it hard to understand how paving quarry trail is even controversial. I've ridden that trail in all seasons, although it isn't on my normal route, and considering its location and connectivity, it surprises me that it hasn't been paved already.
Its convenient location has resulted in expanded use for transportation cycling. Increased use means additional wear and tear, ergo it should have an improved surface.
I would understand the resistance if the proposal was to pave sideshow or some other purely recreational route.
Also, considering the grades relative to other paved paths, the safety argument is meaningless.
Discussion Summary
Submitted by snowandscience on
Hi All,
Thanks for your construcive comments so far, great to see this generate such a positive discussion. With this post, I'm trying to capture the major points so far so we don't have to re-hash all the points again and again (getting a bit repetitive in spots).
"Just the facts"
- Quarry Hill is an unpaved major commuter route for cyclists from the SW. It is the most direct route to downtown from Spruce Cliff, Wildwood, Westgate and Rosscarrock, and could feasibly be used as an alternative to Edworthy hill for communities west of Sarcee trail.
- Quarry hill is also used recreationally by joggers, pedestrians, but less so by baby strollers and rollerbladers due to gravel.
- Pathway becomes dangerous to ride after rain/snow due to erosion, deep snow & ice and soft trail conditions. Ruts and erosion are particular concerns.
- Several cyclists are concerned about muddy rides (for themselves and their bike's drivetrain), arriving at work in relative cleanliness
- Pathway is a gentle-grade hill, one of the only gentle grade hills leading to the SW. This makes it an exceptionally good route for less experienced cyclists, and average fitness Calgarians.
"Pro-paving"
- eliminates ruts, and mud, provides safer surface to ride.
- provides accessible easier grade climb to the SW, compared to Edworthy Hill and substantially easier climb compared to 24th St hill (not sure if it has another name)
- connectivity with planned Spruce Drive bike lanes & WLRT to Bow River pathway and downtown (Edworthy hill is an indirect route from the 4 communities that would be most directly served by paving)
- increases accessibility for more types of bikes (this is a personal comment, I wouldn't take my roadie on the existing gravel path on a regular basis)
"Don't pave it"
- used recreationally, some compromise needed with other trail users
- will become too busy if paved
- speeding may be concern if it is paved
- other measures may provide similar effects to paving (e.g. erosion control, plowing etc.)
- potential alternate route (my own comment here: the above-proposed route through Scarboro is great if you're south of Bow Trail, but is definitely out of the way for communuties N of Bow Tr. having cycled this alternate route several times, I think it's OK to get to the beltline, but to get into downtown, you really want to be on the Bow River pathway asap).
"Arguments that all seem to be in agreement"
- current pathway is unsuitable at various points of the year for *any* two-wheeled use
- some degree of improvement to the Quarry park hill is necessary
- history of Quarry Park would be a "nice to have" addition to the MUP in this area.
---
Have I captured everything so far? Let's keep this discussion going - it's an important one to have.
Cheers,
Ben
summary
Submitted by 2wheeler on
You missed one:
"it's fine just the way it is"
yeah
Submitted by mikewarren on
I agree, it is nice to have some unpaved paths in the City. Almost all of my use of Quarry is recreational so I can't speak about the commuting, but I do wish sometimes we'd keep the "actual natural surface" paths (i.e. singletrack) instead of making gravel "natural" surface pathways out of them, which tend to suck (I'm thinking parts of Nose Hill here, Bowmont, etc). Improvements are good, and certainly some of the missing-connection type stuff "deserves" paved paths but lets not pave everything.
The thing about Quarry is that it's really the only good, viable route to the Wildwood-ish areas of the SW -- and the opportunity to fix access here was just squandered during the West LRT when they could easily have put a pathway down Bow Trail at least from Westbrook to the river pathway accesses while ripping up and re-doing the south edge of the city-owned golf course. Oh well. It seems to me that paving "something" that takes a reasonable grade up the south riverbank needs to happen, and the already-popular Quarry trail does seem like a natural choice.
Great Summary
Submitted by themacneils on
Thanks for taking the time to summarize all the arguments.
Regarding the route through Scarboro, you're absoluutely correct re: commuting downtown. On the way home I go through Scarboro, and on the way into work I go across the new pedestrian bridge and then down the 24 Street path down to the river. I can see that it wouldn't be as efficient for people N of Bow Trail. As an example of the overall accessibility of the route, my wife (who hasn't been able to ride much in the last 5 years due to either being pregnant or breasfeeding) was able to take our oldest (4 year old) on the trail-a-bike (and I had our 2 boys in the chariot) down to the Beltline and back home yesterday!
Public Consultation
Submitted by snowandscience on
Maybe I posted my summary too soon... recent developments below:
I was in touch with John Mar over Twitter today, and he said there would be a public consultation on the area this fall. We'll make sure everyone's aware of it when it comes up.
I also took a detour to ride the hill this morning, since it has been a while since I've been up that way. It is certainly a beautiful path through the forest, and the appearance of the gravel trail was definitely nice to look at. My 1980's commuter road bike made it up the hill, but I had two occasions when I needed to stop or yield to downhill traffic. There was really only one path I could ride in (packed/eroded in the center) without losing a wheel to the soft gravel (and this is under "good" conditions for a gravel path). There is no room for an uphill and a downhill bike to pass each other safely without going into the deep gravel. I would not ride the pathway on a regular basis on my road bike, folding bike, or anything less mountainous than a tri-cross. The climb was easy, definitely the best I've found for the SW hill anywhere - beats the pants off of Edworthy, 24th St, or Bankview routes. Access on/off the pathway on the top/bottom was excellent and relatively safe - side street at the top (with new bike lane planned on Spruce drive - winning combination), and Bow River MUP at the bottom (crossing CP tracks at level grade). Coming down the hill, it's is somewhat steep, but I don't see speeding being an issue any more than the Weaselhead area, or downhill path to the MUP beneath Foothills hospital, or similar MUP's in the Edmonton River Valley that I ride frequently when visiting the great white north. Well signed "GO SLOW" and "WATCH FOR PEDESTRIANS" will do the trick. Mountain bikes can already race down the Quarry Hill trail, so speed is not really a difference maker for me.
Ride details available here: http://www.mapmyfitness.com/workout/128458765
While the route is "nice" as a recreational gravel trail, I think if Calgarians are serious about transportation cycling, we're going to have to consider paving this hill as an option for access to the SW. Paving will make the route much safer and more accessible for cyclists coming and going from downtown and provide a safe link to the MUP that doesn't currently exist. As far as providing an 8-80 link between major pieces of cycling infrastructure (connects Spruce Drive w/Bow River MUP), this hill is the best option by far. This said, I'd like to see other users accommodated in whatever way possible (extending the parallel Douglas fir trail at the bottom of the hill where these two routes meet?). I do see the arguments for paving & snow removal here, as it would transform this already excellent route into an accessible one for most people.
There's my $0.02, more in the fall when discussion about the area will be undertaken by the City.
Cheers,
Ben
on the fence...
Submitted by bike-run on
"safe access" is a good point, since Edworthy Hill has vehicle traffic - I've had quite a few scares going downhill, from uphill cars passing on blind corners (doesn't help if cyclists climb 2 or 3 abreast...), so Quarry trail is safer from that point of view, but I also think paving it will create more speeding by the riders that are going to speed, so there will be less room for error on the blind corners.
September on the Quarry Road
Submitted by margaretmary on
I ride the road mosty days and I'd like to see significant improvements. Either it needs to be paved or regularly and properly graded. Right now there are a number of places, both at the top of the hill, and at the big s bend, where the gravel is deep enough to 'eat' a front tire and cause a fall. As a number of people noted, this is one of the best routes to the MUP from the sw and yet it is not a safe ride. The grass on the verge was recently cut, but nothing was done about the grading. What can we do? I want to ride this route year round but right now I can't. It is frustrating, especially seeing as the nice new lines on Spruce Drive lead to the trailhead!
Tweeted with John Mar today
Submitted by snowandscience on
Alderman Mar is going to look into it this week. Originally he said it would be revisited this fall, and I'll make sure to hold him to his promise. With the new Spruce Drive lanes in place it's a really obvious connector to improve the conditions for year round riding
B