I've got a question about how we're supposed to deal with the right-hook scenario.
I encounter this frequently, usually at 11th street and 11th ave (southbound). I'm in the bike lane going straight through the intersection, and a car turns right in front of me and stops to wait for pedestrians in the crosswalk.
I've had a remarkably difficult time searching for the relevant portion of Alberta traffic laws. I found this page comparing the laws in California and Oregon, but which one applies in Alberta? Are cars legally supposed to yield to us, or are we supposed to yield to the cars? I'm going to continue yielding to the large piece of metal that can kill me, but I'd like to know who's technically in the right.
In the situation where the line between bikes and cars is dotted at the intersection, I think it's pretty clear that the cars are allowed to merge in and then turn right (California style). However, when it's solid right up to the intersection such as at 11th and 11th, I'm not as sure.
Argh
Submitted by snowandscience on
I ride this every day, and almost get right hooked every day. I just ring my bell incessantly as I approach the interesection and hope that people who haven't signalled their turn hear me coming. I've also called 311 to request signage about this - specifically a "Yield to Cyclists" sign like what's present at Memorial and 29th St NW. I believe the cars are supposed to yield to cyclists going through the intersection in this case, but I'm not sure if this applies to other situations throughout the city.
Boats
Submitted by barnecut on
If we weren't landlocked we would understand that the big boat yields to the little boat and apply the rule to all situations. Statutes shouldn't be required.
actually, to be precise
Submitted by theorangejacket on
Size makes no difference - it's power boats yeild to unpowered boats (sailing or rowing) except if you are a massive tanker in a narrow channel, then you can do what you want pretty much, or if you are towing another boat.
"Generally, a sailing vessel is privileged in relation to a power boat. But this is not true if the power boat cannot safely navigate outside the channel in which she is cruising, nor is it true if the sailing vessel is overtaking another vessel. Overtaking vessels have a duty to keep out of the way of overtaken vessels. Whether privileged or burdened, it is the duty of every vessel to avoid collision."
I assume what you have in
Submitted by Richard Z on
I assume what you have in mind is cars turning right from the lane to the left of the bike lane. That's counter to section 25(3) f the Rules of the Road, which states:
Where
(a) a highway is divided into traffic lanes, and
(b) a person driving a vehicle is approaching an intersection and intending to make a right turn with the vehicle,
that person, for the purpose of making the right turn,
(c) shall drive the vehicle in the traffic lane nearest to the right side of the roadway,
http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/laws/regu/alta-reg-304-2002/latest/alta-reg-...
The lane nearest to the right side of the roadway in this case is the bike lane. When changing lanes, of course you have to yield to vehicles (bikes) in the lane (section 15(4)).
Bike lanes are High Occupancy Vehicle lanes under the City's Traffic Bylaw. Cars are prohibited from driving in a bike lane, except when required to do so by the Traffic Safety Act and the Rules of the Road regulations, so they are allowed to enter the bike lane in order to make a right turn.
In other words, the situation is just like in California.
I was pretty sure that the bike lane stripe is dashed whenever this happens -- can you or anyone confirm that it isn't at 11 St and 11 Ave? Then that should be fixed.
Line is dashed
Submitted by Charbucks on
Thanks for the explanation Richard. That makes a lot of sense, particularly given the dashed lines.
I couldn't remember when I wrote the original post, so I checked it on Google streetview, and the line is solid. Then, on my ride home, I made a point of looking, and it's actually dashed. I guess they changed it when they repainted the 11 st bike lane?
I think the take-away from this is that a car turning and cutting me off is illegal (I have right of way), but if I arrive at the intersection and a car is already blocking the lane then he's got right of way.
I think the boat analogy is a good one: technically, powerboats are required to yield to sailboats. However, I've been in a 30 foot sailboat crossing paths with a 500 foot ferry; I yielded. Just like on a bike, sometimes yielding to the vehicle that can crush you makes the most sense.
Some people even like to
Submitted by Richard Z on
Some people even like to leave the bike lane and take the through lane at the intersection to avoid being cut off.
AGM
Submitted by barnecut on
I was waiting for Richard to recite this at the AGM. Much educaiton to be done.
What is the rule on cars
Submitted by winterrider on
What is the rule on cars sitting in the bike lane for the two blocks leading up to the turn? Specifically, west bound 10th Ave SW leading up to 14th St. I rode this the other day and there was a line up of cars at least a block long, maybe approaching two, sitting in the bike lane.
There being no room left in the bike lane, I rode between the two lines of parked cars (those waiting to turn and those waiting to go straight) up to the intersection. This is not the safest maneouver as you are in two door zones simultaneously, though in theory no one should be opening their doors.
Should we complain about this to someone (311?), or is this what cars are supposed to do in times of congestion?
I noticed it getting bad this
Submitted by Tyrone on
I noticed it getting bad this week as well. In the summer CPS were doing a great job of enforcement, but with winter here I hope thy don't give up on it. Not sure what the "rules" say about congestion, but in the summer during the blitz, the CPS were basically ticketing any car that entered the lane before the dotted line.
The bike lane actually ends
Submitted by Chealion on
The bike lane actually ends roughly half way between 12th and 13th Streets so there's a block and a half where it's just another road lane and no longer a bike lane. When the line starts reaching back to 11th it gets frustrating.
Personally I transition to the middle when I reach the line of cars.
Can't wait for early 2014 for the cycle track for that area.
Taking the Lane
Submitted by cleaverr on
I had a question about this too. When I am in a bike lane, and the lane beside me has the option of turning right, then if I'm the first one to a red light I will take the lane. I don't want to risk a car right hooking me as the light turns green. This pissed someone off today, who's shrill honks are still in my head. Can I confirm with some fellow cyclists whether or not I have the right to do this? I'm pretty sure that I do, but I was thrown off today.
Just a bad commute home today. (the ride in this morning was beautiful, though :))
Cars in the lane to your left
Submitted by Richard Z on
Cars in the lane to your left never have the option of turning right. If they want to turn right, they have to merge into the bike lane, yielding to cyclists already in it, and make the right turn from the curb. That is why bike lanes at the approach to an intersection aren't solid. Cars are allowed to cross a bike lane when turning, and everyone must turn right from the rightmost lane.
Right turning cars
Submitted by amf673 on
I divide these up into two cases:
1. No bike lane. I take the right most through lane. For example, southbound on 26 St SW at 17 Ave. There are no formal lines but next to the curb is where people turn right so I position myself in the centre of the straight-through lane. This makes my intentions clear and leaves the right turn area clear for drivers to turn right. Sometimes some misguided drivers will pull up on my right, intending to go straight-through.
2. There is a bike lane for example, 5th Ave NW at 14 St. I stay in the middle of the bike lane and pull up right to the front -- one wheel into the cross walk ahead of any cars. This makes it clear that a right turning vehicle should wait behind me. If anyone is going to illegally turn right from the next lane with the green, and possibly right hook me, they will at least most likely see me because I am near the front slightly ahead of them. I used to pull to the right or left to allow right-turners to go by until I got clipped by side mirrors, twice. Now I figger they can wait.
I can't imagine why anyonen would get upset if you took the lane at the red light? You are leaving space for right turners and you will be 'out of the way' by the end of the intersection.
False sense of entitlement
Submitted by DarrenB on
The only people that would honk at you for occupying the travel lane when you arrive first at a red are misguided motorists who feel bikes must always yield the right of way to cars (obviously they have no respect for the rules of the road or for those around them). I know it can sometimes be hard to ignore them, but feel good that you did the safe and courteous thing. Personally, I would pretty much always do what you did if I suspect cars behind me are going to try to turn right -- too darn dangerous to stay near the curb, and the law does not require it.
I saw a great quote today on Twitter from the Can-Bike feed: "One of the most courteous actions cyclists can take is to assume responsibility for their own safety." So true.
There's a winter bright side
Submitted by Cword on
Motorists are much more willing to drive over the sidewalk to make their right turns onec the gutters are filled with snow.
True, but...
Submitted by Charbucks on
I struggle with this issue every day at the intersection of 19 st and 16 ave NW. Southbound on 19 st, the majority of cars turn right in the right hand lane, but both lanes go straight through. I prefer to be in the right lane because I don't like cars passing me on the right, and because I often turn right into the CIBC just past the intersection.
If I'm not the first to the intersection, there's no issue - I just line up behind the cars, and usually the right turners won't clear the lane on the red anyway. However, if I am first to the intersection, I get honked at if I take the lane. Every time. The worst was one time where there was another biker, who made room for turning by going all the way into the crosswalk on the left hand side of the right hand lane. I took up position behind him, in the middle of the lane, and the cars behind me sure didn't like that.
I've now started moving over to the right. Typically, it's actually not an issue - I just make eye contact with the driver to the left of me and somehow it works out. However, I do realize that I'm potentially sacrificing my safety to avoid getting honk/yelled at.
I hear you
Submitted by DarrenB on
I face a similar situation daily crossing Shaganappi, particularly westbound on Varsity Dr. right between the two strip malls where the traffic piles up. Do you have room to move to the left portion of the curb lane near the crosswalk so that drivers can JUST squeeze by you? I find this is about the only thing that works. If I see someone that looks aggressive, I even make a show of trying to make room for them to pass on the right while still maintaining a visible position in my lane.
Not sure what one can do about the honking idiots. Clearly, they think you should be crossing the road in the crosswalk or something. Of course, if there was another car in front of them instead of you, it wouldn't even cross their mind to honk. All the more reason we need to pressure the City of Calgary to start rolling out the Promotion and Education programs they promised (and funded) with the Cycling Strategy.
move left instead
Submitted by mikewarren on
At that intersection, I will wait basically in between the two lanes -- giving right-turners room to do so. On the green, I take the lane and move slowly to the right. Really, 19th isn't wide enough ANYWHERE for 1 bike + 2 cars, so I basically take the lane from Confederation all the way south. However, I find if you want to let cars turn right at any red, waiting to the left side of the rightmost lane works really well -- nobody so far in 20 years has tried to pass me on the right on the green light (and if the car behind me isn't turning, I make sure I'm right in front of them before the light turns green).
Most drivers seem to really appreciate this.
That is a striaght-through
Submitted by amf673 on
That is a striaght-through/right turn lane. I wonder if a person driving a car but going stratight through would get the honk? Likely not.
accomodate both
Submitted by mikewarren on
I tihnk the perception is that a bike is skinny and could accomodate a right-turning car. I "usually" do so by moving left (see above).
Not there, but at other
Submitted by winterrider on
Not there, but at other intersections I have honked at cars in the past when they could move up a bit to allow me to turn right.
As Mike said, if its not a hassle to accomodate them, I always move to the left to allow right turners by if it doesn't make the situation dangerous for me. I do this at any red light I'm waiting at. I do this in my car as well when the situation allows it (wide curb lanes etc).
my commute takes me through
Submitted by wilcode on
my commute takes me through the intersection heading eastbound off highfield to cross ogden which has 2 lanes, the left for left runs and going straight, and the right lane for right turns only. twice this week i was in the left lane as i was heading straight through onto 38th and i was passed by cars taking the right lane who were also going straight through the intersection. the second time was especially close as there's no room for a car to pull in and pass from the right lane due to the curb. i mean, i guess they were impatient or something but it's not like i was going slower than the flow of traffic as the light had just turned green.
Get a plate number and report
Submitted by Tyrone on
Get a plate number and report this dangerous and Illegal turning. If there was a cop there, these people would not be doing this.
Get a plate number and report
Submitted by Tyrone on
Get a plate number and report this dangerous and Illegal turning. If there was a cop there, these people would not be doing this.
ok so this happened again
Submitted by wilcode on
ok so this happened again this morning at the same intersection except westbound. the guy passed no only me but the bus in front of me and the vehicle behind me, all of us going straight through the intersection. it was a white pickup but it went by too quickly for me to catch a plate number. really getting sick of this.
Fill this out
Submitted by Richard Z on
http://www.calgarypolice.ca/sections-traffic-service-form.html
The form works
Submitted by DarrenB on
The CPS do actually take these forms seriously, so it is worth your time to fill it out. I wouldn't be too specific about the other traffic the guy passed, but instead be clear that you are on a bike and that the move was very dangerous to pass on the right using a turn-only lane. That might draw out their attention a bit more.
And of course, if you ever do get a driver description and a plate number, CPS will generally oblige you with a personal visit to the driver (not guaranteed though).
What if no bike lane?
Submitted by BP on
Thanks for starting this thread as it has answered some questions I've always had.
What is the rule if there is no bike lane, and the right lane has the option of going straight through the intersection or turning right? Does the cyclist have to yield to the cars turning right, or vice versa? I currently yield to the cars since i trust zero of them, but was curious what the law states...that way i can shake my fist at them with good reason.
In driving school we were always taught to do a right shoulder check when turning right, for cyclists...but I'm not sure who really has the right of way.
Sorry if this has been answered already.
Doesn't really matter -- take your safety into your own hands
Submitted by DarrenB on
In some ways, who has the right of way doesn't really matter in this situation -- often drivers don't respect the right of way, so I suggest that all cyclists should instead try to anticipate and prevent collisions.
If the curb lane can be used for both through-traffic and right-turns, then the law requires cyclists to ride in this lane. However, this is one situation where riding next to the curb is neither practicable nor safe.
The CanBike curriculum and the Urban Cyclings Skills courses offered by Bike Calgary suggest this: as you approach the intersection, take control of the lane (when safe and appropriate) by moving out from the curb and into the centre of the lane (middle or left third is good) so that no motor vehicles can pass you in that lane on the left or right. Keep your feet moving to indicate that you want to go straight through, and pedal through the intersection, returning to the right third of the lane once you are clear. The last place you want to be caught in an approach to an intersection is next to the curb, particularly if there are large vehicles (e.g., commercial trucks or dump trucks with poor visibility) nearby, as they might make a right turn suddenly without signalling and run you down. Unfortunately, we have seen a number of deaths recently in Canada from this type of accident.
On the same note, and perhaps more to your question, if you are filtering up along the right curb, be VERY wary of passing vehicles on the right when you come to intersections or driveways -- the same 'right hook' is a risk. Instead, try to merge in with flowing traffic until you are clear of the intersection or driveway. I sincerely doubt that a right turning motorist would be charged if they were mostly over to the curb when they turned, but a cyclist overtook them from behind on the right and collided with the turning auto.
And I would also suggest that even when painted bike lanes are present, this type of defensive cycling is often warranted.