I commute along the Memorial pathway during the winter. During the winter months the City has blocked off the underpass under Edmonton Trail north bound/5 Ave off ramp that flows onto Memorial drive east. The problem is there is no other way to safely pass over or under these streets with the path blocked off. There is no designated cross walk across Edmonton Trail/5 Ave. So people hop off their bikes and walk it around the barricade/gate and through the underpass.
If anyone has commuted through there this winter you know it is Calgary's second unofficial luge run. Right now its a luge run in the morning and a lake in the evening. I fall almost every time I walk my bike under there, it is pure black ice. Now I am not the only one using this, there are many joggers, cyclists etc. I can't imagine how handicapped people would negotiate this stretch of the path.
I have called 311 a few times and have a hard time to get them to put in a complaint. They tell that the underpass is closed due to public safety so they can't put in a complaint about cleaning it up since it's closed. One operator instructed me to lodge a complaint stating that there is no safe alternative to cross Edmonton Trail and 5 Ave at that intersection.
So could all you Bike Calgary members join forces and call 311 everyday and lodge a complaint that there is no safe cross walk across Edmonton Trail and 5 Ave. The more complaints they have about an issue the more resources they allocate to fix a problem. So if people who rely on that route call in everyday we might generate some action for next winter.
Are you serious?
Submitted by Orange on
Let me get this straight.
1. You know there is a problem.
2. You have not adjusted your commute to avoid the problem.
3. You want everyone to call the City and become a public nuisance so that you can get the path cleaned.
Did I get this right?
Hate to break this to you but every single person commuting by bike at the moment has some area that is currently unsafe due to freeze/thaw that we have going on right now and while placing blame is fun there is absolutely nothing the City can do about it … they are not Gods.
By becoming a nuisance to the City the only thing we would achieve is to further degrade the perception of cycling in the eyes of the City.
We have to stop acting like children and start focusing on real cycling issues – like changing traffic laws so that cyclists right are protected (such as 3-foot minimum passing distance). Or how about getting the pathway cops to focus as much on the runners without lights as they do on cyclists going 25 km/h.
So I had to agree with you
Submitted by PedalFaster on
So I had to agree with you about adjusting the commute and worrying about bigger things but on the topic of runners without lights and speeding cyclists I have to disagree.
Pedestrians of any kind on the sidewalk or pathway have the same right to full courtesy and safety from cyclists that we would expect from drivers while we are on the road.
Bottom line is if you weren't going over 20kph on the pathway then you wouldn't have a problem seeing them in the dark, presuming you have proper lights and are watching where you are going. I have ridden for over a decade in Calgary, all seasons, night and day, pathways and roads and have never run into anything in the dark because I didn't see it. Except for ice and those damn roots that make speedbumps in the pathway.
We just have to give all other users of the pathways the right of way, plain and simple. It is not an equal sharing situation, we just have to go slowly and watch out because it is intended as a recreational use system and not a highway for commuters. Until you change the bylaws then this is the way it is.
Or you could start fighting for proper bike lanes and other cycling infrastructure and legislation improvements so that we could finally hit the streets in our own lanes and at our own speeds.
I commute through this
Submitted by PedalFaster on
I commute through this intersection regularly and simply choose to ride on the street. Yeah, traffic is tough, there are big puddles and lots of debris and ice, and crossing the bridge in traffic is tight but it isn't much easier on the narrow bridge sidewalks either. This area and the pathway east all the way to the foot bridge near Fort Calgary has been under construction and blocked off in one form or another for almost a year now because of East Village construction projects. It is a big pain because that pathway was a really nice detour from the traffic if you had to go to or from Inglewood or the Stampede grounds.
But honestly if you fall every day while walking under there then why do you keep doing it? Why not just cross at street level?
I have to agree with Orange somewhat, I wish cyclists as a whole could get together and agree on 1 or 2 (or 3) big changes that need to occur and then get together to support them. For example, bike lanes, revised traffic laws wrt bicycles, bicycle parking, transit and cycling integration... the list goes on of course but lets pick 2 or 3 and just try to get them done. These types of improvements will benefit all commuters as a whole. While a closed underpass or trail section is not a small inconvenience, if we could all ride much more safely and efficiently on the roads things would be much easier for us all, winter or summer.
Pics of 5 Ave flyover ice situation
Submitted by ride on
First off, thanks to Joe for raising the topic of this underpass closure; that's what this forum is for: discussion of topics affecting commuter cycling. Just so everyone can see what Joe is complaining about, here are a few pictures of the location (I modified my morning commute route, after reading Joe's post earlier this morning, so that I could snap these pics).
Closure at east end of 5th Ave fly-over:
Here you can see clearly the gate, and the new underpass closed/open sign that Parks is installing near all the underpasses. Also note how easily you can get around the closed gate without even dismounting - a real treat compared to the situation at Centre St (both sides) where you would have to lift your bike over the gate to use the underpass when it's closed.
Alternate routing around closure:
Here you can see a pathway leading to a sidewalk across the 5 Ave fly-over. This will take you right into downtown. This is one possible way around the closure of the underpass.
Surface-level detour:
Here you see your other option for a detour around the closure, and this is what Joe is objecting to. First you have to cross two lanes of traffic doing 70 km/h in order to get to a median, then cross four more lanes of northbound Edmonton Trail (but at least you can do that at an intersection stoplight crosswalk). I wouldn't recommend this crossing to anyone; the City discourages from even trying by having installed these concrete dividers to make it difficult for you to even try.
Ice on the Fly-over underpass:
Here's the ice that Joe is talking about in his post. Yes, it's all bumpy from people walking in it when it's slushy. However, I was able to easily walk across it on the left side, without falling down, beside the wooden posts. I also see that the ice on the river side of the wooden fence looks to be a little lower than on the pathway, which suggests that during the next chinook some generous volunteer might be able to sneak down here and shovel all the slush off the pathway.
So here's where Joe and I diverge in opinion - yes, it would be great to have this pair of underpasses re-opened, and Parks is monitoring the situation there, while trying to make the best use of its limited resources. However, there are in fact detours around both of those closed underpasses. And, even when closed the 5th Ave fly-over underpass is still usable by determined pathway users thanks to the wooden 'railing' you can hold on to. Joe, if you have trouble walking on the ice, have you considered YakTrax?
Cyclists crossing the ice:
In the two minutes I was at this location taking pictures, two cyclists that I haven't met before used the underpass. Both dismounted and walked across, and neither fell down. I spoke to the first cyclist, who told me his route is from Crescent Heights to Inglewood. I pointed out that he could just ride across the river on the Centre St. bridge, then take the south-side pathway to Fort Calgary and then into Inglewood. However, he continues to use this route instead because he likes the ride along the river to the Zoo, and the closure isn't a big deal to him. I didn't get a chance to interview the second cyclist, who was in a hurry.
Edmonton Trail underpass closure:
Here's a view of the closure of the Langevin Bridge underpass, showing the detour pathway, which takes you to a stoplight crosswalk at Edmonton Trail.
Langevin Bridge ice:
This is the ice situation underneath the Langevin Bridge. Note that the level of the ice on the pathway is the same as that of the river ice. Even if you send in heavy equipment to clear the ice off the pathway, it's likely that water will flow in from the river to replace that ice.
Parks' view on 5th Ave Flyover underpass
Submitted by ride on
In recent conversations with Parks officials I've learned that they're aware of the sub-optimal situation regarding the lack of a riverside surface alternative to the closed underpass at the 5th Ave flyover. They'll soon be in discussion with Roads to see if a crosswalk can be installed on the north side of the bridge to enable pedestrians and cyclists to cross that very wide northbound river of traffic. I suspect that it will be a challenge, and the high speed of the traffic doesn't help.
On the other hand, there's a crosswalk on 17th Ave SE that crosses the southbound off-ramp off Deerfoot onto 17 Ave, and cars come barreling off there at 70 km/h. And that crosswalk has no blinking light to alert motorist to the pedestrian's presence. As a pedestrian or cyclist, you have to keep your wits about you when crossing some of these high-speed roads... or any road, for that matter.
Then too, this year's ice situation is unusual. We can expect that in "normal" winters, if such a thing exists in Calgary, the underpass at the 5th Ave flyover would be open most of the winter.
5th Ave
Submitted by Jamie B on
This is my usual cycling route in the winter. During the summer I use 14th St from Evanston to downtown. This year the underpass is no different than most years. I tried the detour that the city recommends however this led me into downtown and having to backtrack across 5th then across 4th, 3rd just to get back to the bike path. I don't mind riding in traffic but if there is an alternative like a bike path I prefer to use it. The easiest choice for me was to dismount and walk through the closure. Some days I have to walk slower than others..cycling shoes can be very slippery. The time I use to walk saves on the time and inconvenience of the detour. This is my choice so I see no reason to complain. If I was to complain it would be about the back side of the zoo being closed and no proper detour provided to rejoin the pathway.
5th Ave Edmonton trail underpass
Submitted by 2wheeler on
I too commute under the Edmonton trail overpass. I was one of the cyclists in the pictures above. I have been in contact with the city, and spoke with Tom of Pathway maintenance. He was very helpful expalining the cities position, and obviously a little frustrated by the coditions this winter. I suggested that the city erect a wooden ramp in the underpass. This would be constructed much like the freeride trails, with runners and a sturdy top surface of boards. It would be strong enough to support snow clearing machines. The city could make 6' lengths by 2 m wide, and install it over the ice at the underpass. This would make safe passage for all pathway users.
Both sides of the Bow river pathway are closed, making travel through there difficult. I think the city needs to make the winter pathway system maintenance more robust.
I still disagree
Submitted by Joe on
I don't understand how people can think there is a detour around this lane closure. Do you mean continuing on the sidewalk and crossing over the bride to the south side of the river and then crossing the road and then taking another bridge to get back across to the north side? That's ridiculous. You legally can't cross the roads above because there is no cross walk. As a cyclist I could ride on Memorial Drive but I find that a bit dangerous without a woide shoulder along that stretch, cars squeeze you. Why doesn't the City just leave the lane open and post warning signs saying its very dangerous to cross so cross at your own risk? My point is they barricade the lane but leave no options to cross anywhere so people just hop the fence and walk across anyways, cyclists, joggers, pedestrians, etc. So what's the point of the barricade? To save the City from liability? Why not spread sand on it? If they know this is a problem area they could easily leave a barrel of sand for people to spread out themselves. There are many solutions to this problem that wouldn't cost the city lots of money to solve. A barrel of sand is inexpensive to leave behind but just blocking off the only lane that connects the pathway form east to west is like barricading Memorial Drive and not offering any alternative routes.
Alternate route?
Submitted by PedalFaster on
Could tell us where you are coming from and going to? Maybe someone can help find an alternate route.
You are correct that within a km or so of that intersection (if you approach it on the N side of the river) there is no good way around the closure without a fair detour either to the S of the river or the neighbourhoods N of Memorial. However depending on your departure point and destination there may be several good ways to avoid it all together, it just depends on how willing you are to modify your commute. I am primarily a road rider but have had to change my route significantly because of road conditions this winter. For a long time after the heavy snow and then freeze up many of my preferred side streets were just horrible to ride and I quickly had to adapt to busier but better cleared streets. I don't like it but it's a trade off between traffic and just absolute crap riding conditions.
There are several decent ways to detour that intersection if you are going to end up on the N side of the river anyway. If you eventually end up on the S side then there are some options too although probably a bit longer of a detour.
My route not really the point
Submitted by Joe on
I really appreciate the help to find a better route, but it's not my point. Just for the sake of argument my route is from the west side of the Shaganappi Golf Course on top of Bow Trail to the Calgary Herald. It's 12.5km one way traveling directly west to east. So adding to my route isn't really something I want to do. I want the City to address this issue of bad route design. My point is that they have blocked off the pathway going from east to west without a safe detour for pedestrians and cyclists. Some people have stated that I am whining about not having perfect riding conditions. This is the farthest from the truth. If you join me on my ride, the path behind the Shaganappi Golf course in the winter can become Calgary's second luge run in the fall and spring. The path up to the Barlow LRT is completely covered in ice and I have to carry my bike quite often over ice. The point is that the City doesn't block it off and say go around and offer no alternative. Some people have stated I am wasting my time complaining about one small issue. Well as a member of Bike Calgary we are trying to make small changes as well as the big changes because small changes will add up to large changes. This is one area that I really think needs to change. I usually ride on the north side of the river all year, then in the winter the City blocks the underpasses so then I ride on the south side until the 5 Ave/Edmonton Trail North bridge. The problem is I already travel across the bride to continue east and then I hit this underpass. I could jump onto Memorial and try and compete with the cars in the off ramp who are going 70km and hope I don't slip on the rocks and a row of ice. But I just think it's a solution the City could take on one year and solve by raising the pathway a couple of feet. I understand this freezing doesn't happen every year but seriously they have engineers in City Hall who could fix this in one summer. What about the people who walk their baby stollers, joggers, should they walk across 4 lanes of traffic, then cross another 4 lanes of traffic and then cross 4 lanes of traffic again to go north, east, west and then south so they can just cross one set of lanes to get to the other side of the path? I am not just one cyclist whining I am fighting to build infrastructure for everyone in this city to ride. I realize the seasoned riders will get around this no problem, myself included but I am trying to make changes so people like my wife who isn't comfortable right now will have a comfort level to ride in the future. If we try and change the small intersections and problems one at a time eventually we will have a better cycling community. Right now it's only designed for the hard core riders who are willing to got the extra mile. We need a system that gives everyone more confidence to ride. Asking to change one small underpass that cuts off a major pathway heading east and west I think is a step in the right direction.
tl:dr
Submitted by mercator on
Paragraphs breaks make it easier to read long posts.
To the point
Submitted by PedalFaster on
I agree that in the larger picture this closure (and also the upcoming closures due to the weir construction) are a grave oversight by the city and just goes to show how little they know, or care, about how and why people use the pathway system. It is a vital link for many people and many reasons. If you really wanted to tackle this I might suggest looking for broader support from other users because as we all know the voice of the cycling community alone does not always have enough weight.
Perhaps you could write up a thoughtful and coherent letter of concern on this issue and submit it to the city. If you were willing to post it here for review then maybe members of BikeCalgary would support it. I would be happy to add my signature and support to such a letter if it clearly defined the problem and gave some suggestions as to how to solve it. I don't think that at this stage calling 311 and just complaining is going to do much because there are no good solutions on the table and this appears to be a clear safety issue which always means trouble. If we could provide a good argument and suggestions for improvement as a group then there might be some hope.
your route IS the point
Submitted by ride on
Joe, you didn't mention it so perhaps you didn't read it - I posted a reply to your earlier 'whining' post.
Rest assured that most of us on this forum understand the need for bike-commuting routes to be open year-round where possible. Slowly but surely the City is realizing this as well; they've vastly increased the kilometres of snow-clearing done on pathways in recent years.
In past years Parks just closed all the north-side river underpasses in the fall and kept them closed all winter. This year for the first time, perhaps in response to BikeCalgary requests, they've re-opened a couple of them: Centre St north side and south side, which were closed by ice before Christmas and then cleared of ice by BikeCalgary volunteers. Parks has now put up Special signs at the approaches to all the underpasses marking Open or Closed (in addition to the signs on the gates themselves), so clearly they are now thinking of the need and ability to open and close underpasses in response to conditions.
Now, the ice condition at Edmonton Trail was judged to be too severe to enable re-opening; there's still river ice on top of the pathway. However the underpass that you mention has only a little ice left and may be able to be cleared in the next thaw (hint, hint).
You're right that there's no good detour at the surface level at that immediate location, though I posted several alternatives you could consider. And it sounds like you're able to actually continue to use the underpass even now by walking with care (since you can negotiate the Shaganappi luge track, this underpass should be easy).
Processes are already in motion to improve the situation for next year, so I ask you to have a little patience. Nevertheless you are right to ask that the pathways be considered a part of the transportation network and thus there's a need to remind the City to do their best to keep it open or provide alternatives.
The Big Picture
Submitted by Joe on
I did read your earlier post Ride but I still don't understand why other riders don't see the point of using 311 to log a problem that exists for not just cyclists but for everyone using the path. Your response proves my point exactly, the underpass is closed AND riders still walk through. why? Because its the only route through there without having to take a 4 block detour completely in the opposite direction.
I know how the City works and the squeeky wheel gets the grease. The more you put forth concerns through different channels the more a problem is brought to the front. Case in point: I called a meeting for our community to deal with local crime in our area. The local liaison officer was present. There was about 40 people whom attended, they all stood up saying they were tired with all the problems in the area. They listed off break-ins, vandalism, car thefts etc. The Police officer stood up and said you have listed more complaints in the last 40 minutes than anyone has called in all year. He listed off the complaints to the other surrounding communities and stated that compared to our area we didn't have a problem because up until now no one has called in to complain. He stated that they use the complaints generated from 311 and other avenues to allocate funding to communities. I have been writing my alderman for my area but this underpass problem isn't in my ward. I have been personally told by some alderman to call 311 because then it becomes documented and recorded and if enough stink is raised they make it a priority. The majority of complaints to the city are by drivers; well, I think cyclists need to complain as much to get some things done as well, or are we just going to continue pointing a finger at each other saying you're not "hard core" enough, or you're just "whining".
I guess I am baffled that here exists one problem that could be solved with people putting forth complaints and the City allocating a bit of time to come up with a solution. To me closing off a path that for about 2 months now has not been flooded by the river is not a responsible solution. When it snows the City has crews to clear the paths but they can't get one truck to take 5 minutes to throw some sand on the ice under the underpass every other day in one spot? All the other ice patches on the pathway have sand on them. Why here and not there. But because they close off this one underpass they wipe their hands of the situation and walk away saying it's closed off and people shouldn't be using it, find another way around. Well another way around isn't that easy in this very spot. I guess I just thought the cyclist community would be more supportive of getting the small things changed as well as the large things changed. Banding together to get bike lanes is going to take 1000 times more resources and effort than to get the city to deal with one underpass that is used by more than just cyclists. Small steps eventually add up.
agreement on Big Picture
Submitted by ride on
Well Joe, I think we're in agreement on the big picture and that is, the City has responded that they will look at providing an alternative for this closure. I hear you saying that's not good enough: we want action now, and not next year. I think we can only push so hard though the means of persuasion, but by all means, anyone affected by this closure can and should call 311 and ask for action.
So if someone is reading this that is inconvenienced by the closure, please do call 311 and make sure your voice is heard.
Thanks
Submitted by Joe on
That's all I was asking for in the first place.
I worked in City Hall for 3 years, my manager's manager said a secret to success in this position was never commit to anything. The response you should always give is "I will look into it." So needless to say when I hear that, it means nothing. There is no time frame set and no commitment. If nothing happens they are off the hook because they never made a commitment.
back in business
Submitted by 2wheeler on
A big thank-you to whomever cleared the ice from under the Edmonton Trail overpass. Maybe the City did it? I bet it was some hard work. I'm going to log a 311 call thanking the city? Maybe we should all thank the city by logging a 311 call?
The zoo is back in working condition too. The city spread lots of gravel and salt on the path. Thanks again.
Maybe you should stop trying
Submitted by PedalFaster on
Maybe you should stop trying to tell us all what to do. You just never give up do you?
Easy now...
Submitted by mercator on
I think you may have Joe and 2wheeler mixed up.
Thanks Merc, you are right.
Submitted by PedalFaster on
Thanks Merc, you are right. Apologies 2wheeler and Joe as well.
Too much salt!
Submitted by gyrospanner on
I ran an errand up to the NE from downtown earlier this week and came back by the zoo and I'm sure that the city used about 18 gazillion tons of salt on that path. There were piles of it about one-half an inch deep. Thanks for wasting my tax dollars and killing some trout...
I know that Joe didn't want to hear about alternate routes, but I often go into the NE and I actually prefer going north on Center Street and east on 8th Ave. N. (which is pretty close to the Herald building). It's faster because you can avoid all the stops you get crossing the road, cutting through the C-train station, dodging crackheads, etc.
BTW - does anybody know how many zeros there are in a gazillion?
A Gazillion.
Submitted by PedalFaster on
A Gazillion.